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Jun 5, 2013

Chi Ri II - Japanese tier 6/7 medium

Author: Soukoudragon (US forums)

A practical merging of the Chi Ri and Chi To

With the name Chi Ri II, the patterned way of thinking would figure that this Chi Ri II would be a better tank than the Chi Ri.

Well... yes and no.

Let’s look at Germany. The Tiger 2, the Jagdtiger, the Maus…bigger is better was the trend. But bigger meaning better is highly debatable. What if Germany made more of less complicated and lighter fighting machines? Well, the E-series was apparently going to help with that… a little.

With that concept in mind, the Chi Ri II was designed to be more practical than the Chi Ri. The designers were considering the final desperate battle for the homeland of Japan. They imagined destroyed bridges and railroads, the need to transport over water with landing craft, limited resources, and so on. A simplified Chi Ri sounds like a good idea, thus a better tank…for this kind of dire situation. However the war ended before development could begin.

The other point is that the Chi Ri II took many characteristics from both the Chi Ri and the Chi To while removing some characteristics from the Chi Ri. It could be said that it is as much a Chi Ri II as it is a Chi To II.

Characteristics to be borrowed from the Chi Ri (likely a none exhaustive list)

   Electrically moved Turret rotation.
   The wide 600mm treads.

Characteristics removed from the Chi Ri

   Secondary 37mm cannon.
   Large H9II gasoline engine. This enabled reducing the size of the hull.

Characteristics borrowed from the Chi To (production model).

   Similar 7 road wheel style coil spring suspension
   Upper front hull armor sloped (Chi To production model still has a better slope)
   400 HP diesel engine supercharged to 500 HP for the Chi Ri II.
   Very similar turret.

Main armament was the Type 5 75mm cannon.
Shell Weight: 6.615 kg
Muzzle Velocity: 821 m/s
Kinetic Energy: 2229 kj
Historical Pen: 75 mm (1,000 meters) goal (met), 80 mm (1,000 meters) expected

There is really nothing innovating about this tank. Bringing the good points of both the Chi Ri and the Chi To together created a stable and sound tank design.

In terms of WoT, the answer to the question “better” is where the “no” comes in. The simplification and practicality delivers a tank that is somewhat less, or perhaps, equally potent to the Chi Ri. Therefore the Chi Ri II could be either a tier 6 or tier 7 tank and not a tier 8 tank.


Front Upper Hull: 75mm
Front Lower Hull: 50mm
Side Hull: 35mm
Top Hull: 20mm
Rear Hull: 35mm
Bottom Hull: 16mm

Front Turret: 75mm
Side Turret: --
Top Turret: --
Rear Turret: --

Estimated values for optional cannons

Tier 6 Type 5 75mm model II (no auto loader)
AP Damage: 135
AP Penetration: 137
Rate of Fire: 14.5 r/m
Accuracy: .36

Tier 6 Type 5 75mm model I (single tray auto loader)
AP Damage: 135
AP Penetration: 137
Rate of Fire: 19 r/m
Accuracy: .36

Tier 7 Type 5 88mm cannon
AP Damage: 220
AP Penetration: 144
Rate of Fire: 10 r/m
Accuracy: .38

The 88mm cannon may be a bit of a squeeze but looks feasible, especially for WoT purposes.

Weight is about 35 tons. The 500 HP supercharged Mitsubishi AL Type 4 V12 diesel engine gives a 14.2 hp/ton rating. This is undoubtedly the weak spot in the Chi Ri II as far as game implementation is concerned.


It is quite a bit smaller than the Chi Ri and thus a common size medium tank.

Length: 6,492
Width: 3.05
Height: 2.792


The weak spot is the hp/ton rating. With 14.2hp/ton, it just cannot compete with the other tier 7 medium tanks in mobility. All the other attributes such as firepower, armor, and soft stats are workable in tier 7 if mobility was good enough. The weak engine bumps it down to tier 6 quality. There are no other engine options available for the Chi Ri II. The large H9II engine would be too large to fit in the Chi Ri II, thus shutting access to the H9II’s rich de-tuned upgradability.


Maru [丸] 2011 October magazine edition. 平成23年10月一日発行 
WoT Discussion forum: Japanese Tank Tree & Guns Discussion: posts by Daigensui

Chi Ri Kai - Japanese tier 8 medium

SS: Today we have 2 articles about the Chi-Ri development from Soukoudragon (US forums).

Author: Soukoudragon (US forums)

Chi Ri Kai for Medium Tier 8

The Chi Ri Kai is what would be grabbing historically existing features and components and bringing them together. The most important part is the gun. I see no choice but for the 105 to be used.

Ho Ri 105 long cannon

According to the Japanese wiki article that has this gun picture, this 105 has the single tray loader attach to it. By looking carefully, it can be seen. If this single tray loader was removed, it seems like the cannon can be mounted into the Chi Ri plan 2 big turret. That would give the Chi Ri Kai a big alpha and a high pen but with a slow reload. The 105 would be the top gun and the 75mm belt fed would be stock with the 88 available in the modules. This 105 would also be used, likely as the top gun, for the Tier 8 Ho Ri TD, but with the single tray reload attached. The pen, alpha, and accuracy, would still largely be of tier 8 or tier 9 TD gun quality on this tier 8 medium tank.

The hull would be based on the Ho Ri sloped TD.

Technically speaking, this sloped hull was based off the Chi Ri hull anyway. It's just a matter of taking this design and giving it back to the Chi Ri for the Chi Ri Kai. If you look closely, the picture identifies where the transmission, engine, ammunition, and the fuel tank would be located. Just like how these components were switched around in the Ho Ri 2 (e.g. the engine is in the rear in the Ho Ri 2), these components can be switched around to fit the large Chi Ri turret in the middle. As of now, I don't know what the armor would be of the front slope. But even by maintaining the 75 thickness, this very sharp slope of perhaps as much as 70 degrees would make for strong frontal armor.

For suspension, one of the various suspensions examined for the Chi Ri can be used. The Mitsubishi Heavy Industries Torsion bar plan gives the most modern feel.

So these 6 road-wheels with Torsion bars instead of the springs portrayed in this picture.
The Chidori suspension system is also a nice option.

The resulting tank could look something like this example: The Sloped Chi Ri hull, a 105mm cannon, and the MHI torsion bars suspension.

(Image made by forum poster: sp15)

The engine would still be based on the same Chi Ri engine, the H9II. Just different levels in the de-tune would make a suitable engine. After loading on the 105, the Chi Ri Kai's weight may go up to 38 or 39 tons. The series in HP can go like 550, 675, 720, 800. However the 800 may not be needed, perhaps for the tier 9 TD. The Chi Ri Kai at 39 tons will get 18.4 hp/ton with the 720.

And finally, all of the advance features from the Type 5 Chi Ri will carry over, such as the wide treads, the turret basket, gyro-stabilizer, long range observation, the electric motor that rotates the turret, and so on.

With that said, the Plan 2 Chi Ri turret would be quite under armored for tier 8. So then maybe an improved armored plan 2 turret could be used as the upgrade turret. Put on an additional 25mm from those add on plates to make 100 front or go with 125 to match the front thickness in the Ho Ri, whichever seems most appealing I suppose. Add on another ton in weight and make that 720 engine a 725 engine instead.

Aside from the optional upgrade plan 2 turret, everything here are real components creating a realistically feasible tank for tier 8.

The GWE arty seems to have opened the door wide enough for this Chi Ri Kai. But if the door was to get shut, then the STA-1 has to be used for the tier 8 medium. If the Chi Ri Kai gets welcomed, then the STA-1 can be a premium tier 8 medium tank.

One more thing to point out is exactly how other tanks can be implemented will affect how or even if the Chi Ri Kai could be suggested for use. For example, the planned successor to the Chi Ri, the Chi Se is optional for tier 8. While there is very little to go with on the Chi Se, the cheaper Chi Ri II and it's hull might be the more realistic approach for the Chi Se. Work in progress, work in progress...


Maru magazine [丸] May 2013 edition pages 76-81
Maru magazine [丸] October 2011 edition page page 124-131
Japanese wiki: http://ja.wikipedia....rg/wiki/試製五式砲戦車
WoT NA forums/"In Game" Vehicle Comparison/Japanese Tank Tree & Guns Discussion thread

Official E-25 and 112 pics




E-25 on test server

........aaaaaaaaaand it's leaked. Not like we didn't know the stats before. Enjoy.



Thanks to Tengelsen for wonderful gold donation, much appreciated :) (sorry, noticed your gift too late)

- Q: "KV-1S with 122mm is not historical"
  A: "Home-educated experts, huh?" (and SerB adds the picture of 122mm KV-1S)

- the vehicle on the above picture is KV-122 by the way. It's possible that in time, KV-1S will move to tier 5 and will become a hull module option for the KV-1 for more historicity
- SerB states that the "maps are being remade for arty to better hits tanks behind covers" is just a conspiracy theory
- SerB states that during war and post-war firing tests in Kubinka, no side-effects of Zimmerit were ever confimed. Recently, very simple tests were made with magnets and it was found out that Zimmerit has no effect on magnetic mines. It's possible the whole Zimmerit project was made for other reasons

SS: to explain this - there are various theories and hoaxes running around about Zimmerit. The most common are that Zimmerit caused more vehicle fires when shot - it didn't - and that Zimmerit caused enemy shells to penetrate better - again, it didn't. Personally, from what I could find out, in very thick layers (we are talking 5cm or so, which noone applied on tanks), Zimmerit can probably disrupt magnetic mines (just like a piece of wood of the same thickness would), but it doesn't have any side effects and in the setup Germans used it was useless. Nevertheless, some Allies (Americans I think) actually thought that since Germans do it, it must have SOME use and therefore started using captured stock at one point. I believe that the common WW2 author consensus is that it useless. Looked good tho.

- SerB doesn't consider the Saukopfblende gun mantlet (Jagdpanzer IV for example) underpowered
- Jagdtiger hull thickness won't be buffed
- Mark IX Centurion turret is different from Mark 2,3,7
- theoretically the L7 could fit into Mark 2,3,7 Centurion turrets (won't be implemented)
- it's possible Centurion will have its speed increased to 48 km/h
- it's possible (and desired by SerB) that the Chieftain prototype will be introduced into the game, they are looking for proper data for 6 months already, SerB promised to rush the search
- the FV215b 183 won't probably have its ammo capacity increased to 15 pieces
- SerB states that the fact that Himmelsdorf houses are so close to each other is historical and based on old German cities
- SerB doesn't consider the Sturmpanzer II with gold ammo overpowered in 8.6
- SerB admits that the 198 pen for 75mm L/70 was not historical, it will also likely not be solved by using APCR shells for the gun as silver ammo (also unrealistic for 1945)
- the new camo system rollback was caused by a great amount of bugs in camo
- when various models of one tank with different setups (turrets, guns) historically had various numbers of crewmembers (KV-13, Hetzer), the crew amount obviously remains the same. Developers know about this and don't consider it too important, unlike errors in vehicle armor.
- SerB states that they are TRYING not to change premium vehicles, but they do have the possibility according to Terms of Use
- will teamkillers be punished more? "If necessery. We decide what's necessery."
- theoretically, some nations could have 2nd arty lines - but that won't be implemented for now
- on unhistorical E50M: "If you find us a more historical E50M, we will immediately put it into the game" (SS: how did that Weserhütte E-75 go, Zarax and Daigensui? Did anyone on Russian forums mention it?)
- currently, modelling works has begun on the Japanese branch (SS: the German TD's are allegedly already modelled)
- (as a sum of several SerB's posts) SerB basically doesn't care about the Superpershing shitstorm, he mentioned that he developed immunity to whining
- the increased accuracy for guns is fine according to SerB
- the speed of sound (delays between shots and sound) might eventually be implemented into the game, but has a low priority
- the "invisible enemies" camo bug has been found and fixed
- it's not yet clear whether the British tier 8 premium tank will be a medium, or a heavy
- for now the Lowe will not be removed from the shop
- SerB states that it's normal for vehicles to be rebalanced after a while when they come out on live server, test server is not enough to balance them once and for all
- SerB confirms that the source for E50M was Spielberger's book, but also states that the project from the book did not meet success and had to be "further developed" by WG

Bonus: Vallter (one of the developers) on the new reward system

Hi all!

I've seen a lot of questions all over the forums regarding the following message on Public Test server:

In this post you may find some explanations to this.

The case is that in 8.6 we enable a new functional for automatic in-game events - 'Missions'. Shortly, these are combat tasks, for completing which players will receive certain award. There are lots of variants for Mission conditions that allow us to create really interesting challenges. In the same time there are a lot of awards, which may be received for completing this missions. In future we will even add some unique things....

You will be able to check them out on the live server in July (most probably). Currently we are just testing the functional on Public Test that's why no specific announcement was made. We want to test as much parts of the functional as possible, that's why missions are quite easy, different, and provide lots of rewards.

I would share more with you, but I cannot atm. Stay tuned and follow our official portals in order to receive more information in future.

Thank you for reading and... What are your thoughts on this?

Best regards,

Definitive answer: Superpershing stays as it is


So, after the long and dramatic soap opera (SP nerf announced, Storm says there will be no nerf, SerB says there will probably be nerf and then they both said it's being discussed), it has been decide that

there will be no Superpershing nerf.

Personally, I think it's a good decision.